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Beginners/casual players place too much importance on combos in fighting games

• Thread starter Jaded Alyx
• Start date Jun 9, 2022

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• #52

tbf games have combo training but I can't think of a single one that has footsie training. Not even joking lol

Modern Guilty Gear games have this. Guilty Gear Strive has an extensive lesson mode all about footsies, punishes, and such.

• #53

It's like we learn fighting games backward.

I think one of the most important and basic things newcomers can learn is canceling normals into specials, that shit can help a lot with the other basic stuff like learning how to block and poke.

Man, the day I learned how to special cancel, it was like a whole new world just opened up before me.

• #54

The amount of hate mail I got just blocking and punishing with basic strings back during the Injustice days was hilarious, and kinda sad. "All you do is block", "wow you just hold back the entire game", "where the combos?"

I wasn't good or anything, hell I even played a crap character (Ares), but the basic fundamentals and knowing how to punish go a long way.

• #55

I couldn't stand playing fighting games with my brother when we were kids.

I'd be trying to land combos and my brother just did nothing but leg sweeps that cancelled my animations constantly. I'd be yelling "just give me a second!" as I was close to tears.

• #56

I will never, ever be as good at fighting games zas i was during my first couple of hours playing Eddie Gordo in Tekken 3.

My furious, random, button mashing made me absolutely incredible and pretty much unbeatable at the time, even by veterans.

Once I actually started trying to learn the moves, it all fell apart.

• #57

Constant jumping is another issue (which I'm still guilty of at times). I believe you could probably reach Silver in SFV if you learn how to be solid at anti-airs.

• #58

if people want to land fancy combos play umvc3. alot of the characters have similar combos and they are easy to pull off.

• #59

I learned real quick playing CvS2 on Xbox on the hardest difficulty. Every jump in, punished. Every fireball or special move thrown out, punished. Pokes? Hard to punish those if spaced right. You learn the right way to play if someone is teaching you what is and isn't safe to do

I feel like, somewhere out there in the history of fighting games, there was this magical cpu/AI that was coded with just enough jump ins and footies that it would be the perfect training partner. Like, Alpha 2 Ryu dummy on 5 level difficulty or something random like that. Just this random perfect training bot.

• #60

My situation is weird. I don't consider myself a fighting games guy but at the same time I grew up on and still play KoF
Don't know how much different SF from KoF. In KoF I can pull nice stuff with almost everyone and I hope I can do the same in SF6

For some reason I wanna get into SF this time with 6. But if its too much for me, I'm afraid I will just stick with KoF

• #61

I know it's not the most important thing but it's still hugely demotivating feeling like I'll never be able to do even some of the most basic combos in a game. Combos are fun when you can pull them off even against a dummy and not being able to is a huge bummer. I can't combo in Street Fighter but I can in Virtua Fighter and it makes a big difference to me knowing that even if I never fashion an opening for one.

I feel embarrassed when I manage to dizzy my opponent and the highest damage option I have is a basic throw.

I do wish Street Fighter had an interactive tutorial for normals spacing or whatever though, I find I learn better when it's the game itself giving feedback and showing me what to do. But no we just get the impossible to do trials.

• #62

My situation is weird. I don't consider myself a fighting games guy but at the same time I grew up on and still play KoF
Don't know how much different SF from KoF. In KoF I can pull nice stuff with almost everyone and I hope I can do the same in SF6

For some reason I wanna get into SF this time with 6. But if its too much for me, I'm afraid I will just stick with KoF

KOF has that normal -> command normal -> special (-> Super) combo structure for almost everyone, but Street Fighter is more character-specific.

• #63

My situation is weird. I don't consider myself a fighting games guy but at the same time I grew up on and still play KoF
Don't know how much different SF from KoF. In KoF I can pull nice stuff with almost everyone and I hope I can do the same in SF6

For some reason I wanna get into SF this time with 6. But if its too much for me, I'm afraid I will just stick with KoF

Street Fighter is easier than what you're used to in KoF. Pacing is slower, there is much more time to confirm your jumpings, only one jump arc, you'll be more than fine. But that's also the reason I always sticked to KoF, much more movement freedom and options.

• #64

If I try a character, I want to use what's different about that character. I don't want to use the same basic functions used by every character.

• #65

It's absolutely a true point (and one I swear the op grilled me on before lol), but I also definitely feel like knowing a decent small combo or two is worthwhile.
Like if I get stun off in street fighter V, it's pretty dopey looking when my follow up is just an ex move or a basic throw

Fortunately I've never really been into big combos anyway, the only trials I ever finish in fighting games are like zangief, birdie and hulk because their comparatively easy strings are about as much as I can and want to muster.

• #66

that's why there are simplified button layouts nowadays. it allows casuals to get in and start throwing out cool shit and having fun with less need to put in work. with good matchmaking and a bevy of single player options, there doesn't have to be such a sharp drop off in players because of casuals not having fun

I'm not sure that those modes really help though, because the point is to actually play well at the game you need to focus on fundamentals and those simple input schemes usually actively encourage you to spam specials and in many cases unsafe combos.

No matchmaking system is going to protect them, with how many new accounts and the skill matchmaking ultimately requires in fighting games (e.g. SFV ranked will match all the way between silver and platinum together, but in reality there's often only a couple of players at each tier matching with you with a good connection, so it make sense that it pulls quite wide).

So in the end, I feel those players that use the simplistic input schemes to focus on specials and ultimately unsafe combos, just get setup for long-term failure and end up churning because there's no obvious way forward without going back.

• #67

This heavily depends on the game. Good luck getting anywhere in Skullgirls without knowing combos. And that's a game that fighting game fans used to beginners for some reason.

In general, I do think there's a balance between how hard a combo is to do and how easy it is to learn. So for example, if there's a combo that you can learn in 10 minutes as a beginner but that combo will increase your damage by 5 times, you should obviously learn it.

This balance varies widely on a game-to-game basis. I haven't played a lot of SFV, but it seemed to me that the combos there were indeed pretty hard for the reward offered. But in games I like to play (lately mainly Strive), combos are both easier to execute and do much more damage, so learning them is a pretty safe choice. And in platform fighters like Brawlhalla, you'll probably want to learn at least some combos that can KO of a normal attack, as even something super simple like dlight->nsig on hammer will drastically increase your chances of winning.

Because someone posted P4A, I'll share an anecdote from that game. When I first started it, I decided to play Naoto. I liked her in the games, and her animations in the game looked super slick, so it was an easy choice. But here's two facts you need to know about Naoto in base P4A. 1: She was the worst character in the game. 2: She had an infinite combo. Yup, even though she was the only character with an infinite combo, she was a garbage tier character that could barely win any games. If you didn't use her infinite, she was just completely unusable garbage. You weren't going to win with her, ever.

And this is a much broader problem than just P4A. In every new fighting game I try, there's always a bunch of super cool looking characters I'd love to play that unfortunately need good execution in order to do anything. And ultimately, I always just end up using the one or two characters in the cast that don't need long combos to succeed. This works okay as far as winrate is concerned, but not being able to play the characters I actually like obviously isn't great.

The difficulty also varies on a combo-to-combo basis. Tekken 7 for example has plenty of incredibly strict combos, but also a lot of very easy ones that I was able to learn almost immediately. The problem here is actually finding out which combos are easy to do. Online guides will primarily focus on the combos that deal the most damage, regardless of executional complexity. And in most games with combo challenge modes, the combos shown are almost always picked specifically because they are hard to do. So beginners without any external knowledge of the game will try to do what the combo challenges tell them and give up. In Tekken, I had to improvise my own juggle combo by piecing together info from various youtube videos, but most beginners are unlikely to do this.

Finally, and this is something I keep coming back to in all of these fighting game threads: matchmaking matters more than anything else. Sure, if two beginners play each other, the one with better fundamentals will probably win. But if you take a match between two players who are mostly equally skilled, but one of them knows combos and the other doesn't, the one that knows combos will obviously win. The problem with being a beginner in fighting games is that as a beginner, you're going to be matched against players astronomically better than you in every aspect of the game, including combos. So you'll have no chance of winning without at least some combo knowledge of your own. Or at least that was my experience in almost every fighting game I've played: no way could I ever win a single game without comboing when I can barely win anything even with (basic) combo knowledge.

How is your combo going to help you if you haven't learned how to block

In all of the anime fighters that I've played, most characters had incredibly oppressive pressure loops that were a nightmare to block against or try to escape from. And the best way of learning how to defend against them was to learn them myself to see where their weaknesses were. Now these pressure strings aren't technically combos, but they require a similar level of execution. A similar thing applies to Skullgirls, where unless you know where the reset points are in a specific combo, you're never going to get out of it.

• #68

>command throw
>little cinematic
>big damage
>me

me to my opponents as i grab them from a mile away and take them on a grappler journey

• #69

If I try a character, I want to use what's different about that character. I don't want to use the same basic functions used by every character.

Ryu's normals are not the same as Chun's normals, nor do they have the same purposes. They also have different walk speeds, dashes, etc.

• #70

If I try a character, I want to use what's different about that character. I don't want to use the same basic functions used by every character.

well good news, then: every character plays differently!

• #71

It's absolutely a true point (and one I swear the op grilled me on before lol), but I also definitely feel like knowing a decent small combo or two is worthwhile.
Like if I get stun off in street fighter V, it's pretty dopey looking when my follow up is just an ex move or a basic throw

Yep, start with a small combo for punishing and another for when you do land that hit. But learn the basics first.

• #72

It normal people want to use the cool looking shit

Maybe it's the fighting games that place too little importance on combos

• #73

not gonna lie, there are some basic combos that still haunt me to this day.

First thing comes to mind is Rufus' one frame link back in SF4. It was basically the core of his damage and I couldn't do it consistently to save my life.

Once you hit a wall like that it's so easy to be discouraged. I would play that game a lot, but I also quit it a lot too. I wish I could tell my younger self to hang in there.

• #74

I dont think it's important in most games but I did think it was important in Mortak Kombat 11. Even mediocre players could do 40 - 60% combos in that game so all the footsies in the world and little jabs and 10% damage here or there didn't mean much if you just had to slip up once and lose most of your health to a relatively easy combo on one jab punish.

I felt like in that game, because there were good damaging simple combos, even off quick buttons or forward moving lunges perfect for pubishing whiffs, it was important to have something to deal a bunch of damage when you got that punish.

• #75

It normal people want to use the cool looking shit

Maybe it's the fighting games that place too little importance on combos

Combos are important, but they are not the first thing you need to learn. If you can't confirm hits and keep blocking jump ins with your face, knowing combos ain't gonna take you to higher levels and that isn't a bad thing.

For example, a very basic thing that's true in basically all fighting games: Jump in attacks must be blocked while standing. I assure you newcomers take too long to learn that.

• #76

I'm not sure that those modes really help though, because the point is to actually play well at the game you need to focus on fundamentals and those simple input schemes usually actively encourage you to spam specials and in many cases unsafe combos.

No matchmaking system is going to protect them, with how many new accounts and the skill matchmaking ultimately requires in fighting games (e.g. SFV ranked will match all the way between silver and platinum together, but in reality there's often only a couple of players at each tier matching with you with a good connection, so it make sense that it pulls quite wide).

So in the end, I feel those players that use the simplistic input schemes to focus on specials and ultimately unsafe combos, just get setup for long-term failure and end up churning because there's no obvious way forward without going back.

Oh they definitely don't. 1v1 fighting games are fundamentally against casuals. You have to go in and intentionally make a casual oriented game. Then you get something like Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm. Or something people will claim "isn't a fighting game". Like they already do with Smash Bros

• #77

Mortal Kombat 11 is the only fighting game I've stuck with in the last decade and I have to attribute a lot of that to having the best and most complete fighting game tutorial ever

• #78

(e.g. SFV ranked will match all the way between silver and platinum together, ).

This hasn't been true for years. Like, the vast majority of the game's life. Since like the first year on the market.

• #79

The amount of hate mail I got just blocking and punishing with basic strings back during the Injustice days was hilarious, and kinda sad. "All you do is block", "wow you just hold back the entire game", "where the combos?"

I wasn't good or anything, hell I even played a crap character (Ares), but the basic fundamentals and knowing how to punish go a long way.

I feel that. I got hate mail one time calling me a "block spammer." Like WTF am I supposed to do, just get hit? Lmao

• #80

Mortal Kombat 11 is the only fighting game I've stuck with in the last decade and I have to attribute a lot of that to having the best and most complete fighting game tutorial ever

It's one of the best but it's not as comprehensive as UNISTs.

• #81

Back when I was BIG into fighting games, I decided to main Ibuki in SF4. Never learned the most important "combo" stuff involved in her kit. Managed to win often enough online that I felt confident in going to Devastation 2011 though. Then I got my ass handed to me in the second round of losers by Noel Brown of all fucking people.

Not sure what my point is, other than I wish I'd spent more time learning footsies and fundamentals instead of diving in on the character I liked the most. I've barely touched fighting games since.

I agree with your takeaway and am excited about the Modern option with SFVI. I lost so many matches because I botched combos and had poor footsies/spacing when I could probably go farther and enjoy the game more if I just focused on fundamentals.

• #82

This meme is cute but when you boot up Tekken where do you go to learn about any of those other things?

Avoiding the puddle on YouTube, which is actually where you might need to go to learn the combos also since Tekken doesn't teach you anything.

• #83

I feel the disconnect is that in pretty much every other game genre, you learn how to fully control your character first, and then you get practice & get better at playing the game. So with fighting games, players try to do that and get frustrated because it's hard to control your character and do all their moves. And then fighting game veterans complain that people should work on improving their fundamental gameplay, which is incredibly unintuitive to focus on when you still don't feel confident just controlling your character.

• #84

KOF has that normal -> command normal -> special (-> Super) combo structure for almost everyone, but Street Fighter is more character-specific.

Which means I can totally learn SF because its easier than KoF right?

Street Fighter is easier than what you're used to in KoF. Pacing is slower, there is much more time to confirm your jumpings, only one jump arc, you'll be more than fine. But that's also the reason I always sticked to KoF, much more movement freedom and options.

Thats what I wanted to read! So that makes my entry to SF not that complicated innit?

KoF is life man. For someone who isn't into fighting games but sticks to KoF since childhood means the game is special

• #85

I feel the disconnect is that in pretty much every other game genre, you learn how to fully control your character first, and then you get practice & get better at playing the game. So with fighting games, players try to do that and get frustrated because it's hard to control your character and do all their moves. And then fighting game veterans complain that people should work on improving their fundamental gameplay, which is incredibly unintuitive to focus on when you still don't feel confident just controlling your character.

Controlling your character (not doing their moves) is walking forward and back, dashing forward and back, jumping and crouching. These are all important for fundamentals. Being able to throw a fireball is not.

• #86

Avoiding the puddle on YouTube, which is actually where you might need to go to learn the combos also since Tekken doesn't teach you anything.

Tekken doesn't even tell players how to move correctly lol

• #87

I think one of the most important and basic things newcomers can learn is canceling normals into specials, that shit can help a lot with the other basic stuff like learning how to block and poke.

It's funny bc that's one of the first things I ever picked up on back in the old days by simply trying to do specials in games like SF2 and FFS.

• #88

Controlling your character (not doing their moves) is walking forward and back, dashing forward and back, jumping and crouching. These are all important for fundamentals. Being able to throw a fireball is not.

That's a fighting game veteran viewpoint, not a general player viewpoint. If someone's playing Ryu & they can't reliably throw a fireball, they're not going to feel like they've got the controls down. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Smash Bros. is by far the most popular fighting game out there and it's super easy to do all the character special moves.

Elden Ring is more accessible than your average fighting game, because the controls in Elden Ring are relatively easy to learn. If I want to do a cool move in Elden Ring, I equip the appropriate item and/or spell and press a button.

• #89

That's a fighting game veteran viewpoint, not a general player viewpoint.

That's the reason for this thread. I'm not suggesting that it's anyone's fault for thinking that way - I'm informing people who may not be aware that fighting games are more than special moves and combos, and they shouldn't be afraid to give them a try.

• #90

That's why I hoping Samurai Showdown stuck a bit longer in the scene. It basically rejected the combo inflation stuff that has been part of modern fighters.

SNK got into the rollback game right after it released too. At least we can be confident if it gets a sequel it won't die due to poor online.

• #91

It's because most fighting games don't really do anything to teach fundamentals. Some tutorials are getting better at this, but by-and-large you don't even hear terms like "poking" and "footsies" unless you look things up outside the game, and the overwhelming majority of players aren't going to do that. They're going to do what the game teaches them to do.

Folks focus on combos and special moves so much because that's all the games themselves even mention.

• #92

Will a game ever have learning tools as good as Virtua Fighter 4 Evo again?

• #93

Will a game ever have learning tools as good as Virtua Fighter 4 Evo again?

if a tree falls in the forest, etc

• #94

I feel like most fighting games of the late 90s and 2000s emphasized combos in one way or another in their training modes, but basically ignored all the rest of the fundamentals. This stereotype feels like it's persisted to this day. It wasn't really until I saw David Sirlin's tutorial on how to play Super Turbo did I really start to actually understand fighting games.

• #95

It's funny bc that's one of the first things I ever picked up on back in the old days by simply trying to do specials in games like SF2 and FFS.

cr.MK -> fireball can take you places when you first start.

• #96

But the biggest problem (anecdotally) that I've seen with player retention in fighting games is that some people just don't want to learn how to improve.

This is another issue--a majority folks probably just wanna play casually forever. The games should support them too if they just wanna have fun without worrying about being tournament level. This is really an issue with most PvP games.

Oct 25, 2017

13,928

Seoul

• #97

I think it's because combos are cool looking to all players no matter how much they know about the advanced mechanics. So they do the straightforward cool looking thing first .

Then the games also fail to teach anything besides combos and basic defense mechanics, nothing about spacing or movement.

• #98

Because someone posted P4A, I'll share an anecdote from that game. When I first started it, I decided to play Naoto. I liked her in the games, and her animations in the game looked super slick, so it was an easy choice. But here's two facts you need to know about Naoto in base P4A. 1: She was the worst character in the game. 2: She had an infinite combo. Yup, even though she was the only character with an infinite combo, she was a garbage tier character that could barely win any games. If you didn't use her infinite, she was just completely unusable garbage. You weren't going to win with her, ever.

Just here to say that Naoto was undoubtedly not the worst character in P4A. That honor went to Elizabeth and in the future versions it STILL goes to Elizabeth.

• #99

Ive been playing Street Fighter for decades and I still havent really bothered to learn big combo stuff. SF (for the lower leagues where I am at least) dont require knowledge of huge touch of death combos, rather just basic understand and resisting the urge to do stupid things (aka stop jumping in against Ryu!)
These days I just play for fun... no more getting mad at losses online (its not worth it, its always my fault I lost anyway lol) and just enjoy the games for what they are. I probably lean heavily toward Capcom fighters more than any other just because I love the way that SF and Marvel play, but I absolutely adored Samurai Shodown as well (the new one)

• #100

Fatalities had 0 practical use yet it was still frustrating as fuck that I couldn't do them.

garrettextration.blogspot.com

Source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/beginners-casual-players-place-too-much-importance-on-combos-in-fighting-games.593352/page-2